Episode #050: Amanda Goetz, Founder and CEO of House of Wise
What works for you may not work for everyone else. And guess what? That's okay. Setting up boundaries, especially as marketers, is the key in maintaining a work-life balance.
In this episode, we chat with Amanda Goetz, Founder and CEO of House of Wise. Amanda has 15 years of marketing experience overseeing brand and product marketing at various organizations. She's previously worked at Teal, The Knot, and founded a technology startup intended for the wedding industry.
We're chatting about how being a marketing leader prepared Amanda for the CEO role, shifting one's mindset beyond the 9-5, tips on personal branding, and so much more.
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Stephanie Cox: Welcome to Real Marketers, where we hear from marketers who move fast, ask forgiveness, not permission, obsess about driving results, and are filled to the brim with crazy ideas and the guts to implement them. This is not a fireside chat and there's absolutely no bullshit allowed here. And I'm your host, Stephanie Cox. I have more than 15 years of marketing experience, and I've pretty much done about everything in my career. I believe speed is better than perfection. I use the Oxford comma, I love Coca- Cola, have exceptionally high standards, and surround myself with people who get shit done. On this show, my guests and I will push boundaries and share the real truth about marketing and empower you to become a real marketer. First question, tell me something about yourself that few people know.
Amanda Goetz: Oh, my gosh. I would say one thing that surprises people when I say it in passing, is that I was on a reality TV show many years ago. It was a wedding reality TV show. I worked for the Celebrity Wedding Planner. I managed his brand and his licensing deals and the concept of the show, but I actually had to work on the show as well.
Stephanie Cox: Wow. That is crazy. Gosh, was that back when they were filming with all these different weddings? I can't remember. I feel like I've seen this before though.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. I don't share it too, too often because it was not like I was the center of the show by any means. I was just running around in the back, putting weddings on. It was, yeah, My Fair Wedding with David Tutera back in the TLC, WE tv...
Stephanie Cox: Yes. Okay. No, I remember that show. Well, and now, I mean, obviously you went to The Knot and you were a marketing leader there, but now you're CEO of your own company. I would love to learn how you went from, like you just talked about, helping plan and manage the brand of a really well-known wedding coordinator to running marketing for... The Knot's a huge corporation. I think most people know who they are, to now becoming a CEO.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. It's definitely not a linear path by any means. And I wish I could say hindsight bias I had it all perfectly planned and that's exactly what I knew I was going to be doing, but I didn't. So I started my career in professional services actually. I worked for Ernst& Young right out of college and I managed their Entrepreneur of the Year program. And so you analyze companies, you shepherd the founders through that program. And these are founders of huge companies. One of my founders was the CEO, Brunel Kirby of Ulta Salons. So I got to really have a front-row seat of what they were experiencing and the hardships. Then I moved from Chicago to New York and realized that I wanted to understand brand marketing at the ground level. I felt like if I ever wanted to work for a brand or a big brands, like an Ulta or whatever, or even start my own company, I didn't know the ground floor of omnichannel marketing. So I figured the best way to get my hands on that was to go to a small company where I would just be tasked with everything. And that definitely gave me the drinking through a fire hose experience of what it's like to be a holistic marketer. Then from there, I saw some pain points in the wedding industry and it was karmatic timing, a guy that I sat on a junior board for, he was thinking about starting a company in the wedding space and we connected. And he was like, I want you to build this with me. So it was right at the same time as I had my first baby. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to work from home. I'm going to have my baby, and I'm going to build a tech company. So it sounds easy, right? No big deal.
Stephanie Cox: I think I've said that before, right? You have... especially if you're an overachiever like I am, a type-A personality, you're like, oh, we're going to do this and this and it's all going to be great. And I'm going to make... I remember when first we adopted our kids, but I remember when I first came home, I'm like, I'm never going to let them have screens. They're always crosstalk eat organic food. And now I'm like, yes, you can have as many fruit snacks as you'd like, because they probably have fruit in them, I guess, kind of, sort of.
Amanda Goetz: Yes. The quote-unquote" fruit snack." We are obsessed with those in our house as well. So yeah, I did a tech startup in New York City for a few years, which gave me the dream of the fire hose experience of building a company. I joined an accelerator program in New York and I learned a ton. I could not raise capital as a first time female founder, non-technical building a tech company. You can imagine that. We're still in the less than 3% of BC dollars go towards female founders. And this was back in 2011, 2012, when I was building that company. So a lot of headwinds, but I was at a female pitch one night. It happened to be at The Knot and Carly Roney, the founder of The Knot was on the judging panel. So obviously I pitched my company and how I'm trying to solve these pain points that I experienced when I planned over 100 weddings. She pulled me aside, she's like, let's grab coffee tomorrow. She did not know this, but I had just found out a few days before that I was pregnant with my second kid. So I go to this coffee meeting and she's like, listen, when you're ready, I'd love to bring you over to The Knot. And I remember leaving and I was just on the streets of New York and I just started bawling. And I was like, what do I do? I've been working so, so hard on this company. I can see where it can go. This felt like an easy way out, I guess. But at the time I sat with that decision and I felt like it was the right timing for me. And so I shut down the company and went to The Knot and was there for five and a half years. I got to lead the rebrand, changing the logo, changing the whole positioning strategy, which was really, really amazing. But the things that I learned at The Knot, obviously you're at the helm of a massive global brand, but it was the operational excellence. I had never in my life managed more than a person. And now I have a team of 25 to 30 marketers towards the end. And I built that team from the ground up and really understanding resourcing, operating rhythm, what level of granularity. I made a lot of mistakes along the way of how much information to share with your team, because I believe in transparency. And so learned a lot about how to build and scale a team. And then the pandemic hit. Well, a couple years before that I went through my divorce and I had three kids under the age of four. And that's when I really started to explore the idea of House of Wise, because alcohol was no longer serving me. I'm in my thirties, it was affecting me and I started to research why it affects your sleep. Why does it give you anxiety the next day when you drink the night before? Where is that coming from? And as someone who had never touched cannabis in her life, I started to research it because I'm a huge nerd. And before I put anything into my body, I'm going to literally read research papers from other countries who are actually putting research behind cannabis and hemp. And then I found farmers and started talking to hemp farmers and understanding what the different strains are and what makes it powerful and effective. And then COVID hit, and I saw so many women, moms and non-moms, turning to alcohol like I had never seen before. And you have the baseline level of anxiety that's coming from a global pandemic. And then you're adding on poor sleep, homeschooling and now anxiety that's coming from the thing that you're putting into your body. And it was probably the worst time to say I'm going to start a company, but I definitely did not start it overnight. I didn't go into The Knot and say, Hey, I'm quitting my job and I'm starting this company. I actually went in to my boss and said, I'm really, really passionate about this. I want to build this product and I'm going to do it in nights and weekends. But as long as I'm still hitting my goals, are you okay with that? And they were like, yeah. So I started to build in public while I still had a full-time job. And I raised a really, really small proceed just so I could get the product itself. And that's what I was working on until about September 2020. Then it came time where House of Wise needed more of me than just nights and weekends. And I was becoming really burnt out at that time, so I found a halftime CMO position. And again, it was just through amazing networking and sharing ideas and taking those calls where somebody's like, can I pick your brain about something? And I have thoughts about those conversations, but I took this one with the CEO. And I loved what he was doing with Teal to help people navigate career management. And so he was not looking for a full-time CMO because they were still an early-stage company. So went there as a halftime CMO for six months. It was a six-month contract and that allowed me to have two and a half days there, two and a half days with House of Wise, and got us to launch in December. Then I actually didn't end that half-time position until March 2021, so now we're into 2021. I raised the seed round, so we raised a two million seed round in Q1 while I had that part-time job. And all of the investors knew that once I raised the round was when I could go full time, because I am a single mom. I have three kids. I could not do the pay myself$ 0, live off Ramen. I couldn't do it. I needed health insurance. I needed to afford Cobra. All those things that people don't want to talk about and just glamorize this... you have to kill yourself to be a founder. That's why there are so many people, there's a gap. There is a wealth gap, there is a gender gap to being a founder. But yeah, so March 2021 is when I became full-time founder and CEO of House of Wise.
Stephanie Cox: What was that transition like going from... I mean, you had done it before, when you tried to do the tech startup earlier, but what do you think being a marketing leader at a global brand helped prepare you for running the company that you have today? So I had a similar position, marketing leader, most of my career, and now I run Lumavate and it's an interesting jump. And if you would've told me 10 years ago that I was going to run a company someday, that was never something that I thought I was going to do. It's not typically what a lot of marketing leaders are told the next step is for them. Right? It's like you become a director, then a VP, then a CMO and then that's where you stay forever.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Cox: So, how has that been for you? What do you think as being a marketing leader you've been able to bring to that CEO role that has helped you, or what's hindered you?
Amanda Goetz:It's a great question. So if you would've asked me after my first company, if I would ever be a founder again, I would've been like, you're hilarious. No, flat out, no. I made so many mistakes the first time around and looking back, I was like, I didn't know what I was doing. And no, but now I'm less emotional about being a founder. It's tied less to my identity if that makes sense, because it is my second time around. And I know that failure is an outcome that could happen and I don't fear it. I also feel more confident in who I am as a leader because that takes time, and that takes trying on different shoes, so to speak, of your leadership style. I would say things that help me from being a marketer into a CEO is just acute awareness to the customer, because as a marketer, you are the closest to the customer. You're thinking about how to talk to them, what is landing with the audience, how to bring them in, what kind of content, et cetera. Who's the demo? What are they asking for? What are they liking? And then seeing what other brands they engage with. You have a front-row seat into who the customer is. And at The Knot we always had that like church and state struggle of product versus marketing. And then we went on a Silicon valley tour and researched what product marketing was and how it was used. We met with Uber and Airbnb and Facebook. And we met with all these people just to understand how can product marketing bridge that gap. Things that I feel ill-prepared for is... And again, it's not my first rodeo just because of my time at Ernst& Young. But I do not like doing the core ops stuff. I'm a starter, not a finisher. When you think about work styles, I am a zero to one. I love to think about strategy. I love to think about what the end result needs to be, how to define success. Also, as a CEO, and our team is so small still, I think people think that we have this team of 30 people. We're a team of five. And I have to do the calls with the accountants and legal and everything with the fundraise. There's so much paperwork that goes into that. And that's the stuff that I don't think someone prepares you for. Like, Hey, you have to think about HR benefits, employee insurance, and D& O insurance and all the stuff that goes into it that you crosstalk happily spend the majority of your day. I have an amazing head of marketing. And one of the things we had a very honest conversation about is how do I keep my CEO hat on and not put the CMO hat on? Because that's the hat that fits me really well and I like it the most, but that is her job. And so we make it very clear when I'm offering an idea, not a direction. And there's an open line of communication there where she can say, I think you switched hats.
Stephanie Cox: Oh, I love that. It's so funny you mentioned that. I actually had this conversation with our head of marketing last week, but because it is hard. It gets hard and for me to transition right into this role and not be the marketing leader anymore. Like you said, I'm real comfortable in it, so I can't help but give it ideas and throw things out there, but it's never meant as a directive. It's always meant, Hey, this is an idea. You go do what you think is best.
Amanda Goetz: Right.
Stephanie Cox: But it's funny because no matter how many times you say that, it's different on the other side, especially if you've known that person for a while, or they've always admired your work when you were in that role. They want to listen to you, but at the same token, it's like, but don't do... it's hard. That's all I can say. It's just real hard.
Well, I think lead with objectives, not with ideas is my mantra. Our objective is to grow brand awareness. There are so many levers you can come up with on how to grow brand awareness, right? And so create forums where you say, okay, let's all throw in our ideas of what levers could be pulled to increase brand awareness. I led with the objective. And you get everybody's ideas on the table, including mine, gives me a form to get all my creativity out there. Then it is on the marketer to then go size those things. And for us, we always focus on because we're a small team level of impact versus level of effort, because something could be medium impact, extremely high effort. Something could be really low effort, medium impact. You're going to choose the low effort, medium impact. Right? And so I think it's about making sure as the CEO, I'm setting the clear objectives. How do we define success? And we use an OKR structure for that, which makes it very, very simple. And then we focus on a very async work culture. So I'm happy to share more about that if that's something you want to go into, but we have a four-day work week. We have a lot of working moms on our team, and I believe the nine to five. I mean, I don't even believe... the fact is the nine to five was created in a patriarchal society in the 1860s and the Industrial Revolution when people went to factories. And so the nine to five doesn't apply anymore. So I created a culture where the nine to five doesn't exist. What if we removed that as a concept? And we approach building a company, and I have the luxury to do that, because I'm building a company from the ground up as a single mom. And I'm thinking about what makes people thrive. And the fact of the matter is if you want to figure out flow state for somebody, when can they maximize their best energy and creativity and impact, sometimes it doesn't happen in a neat one hour increment that happens between 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM. And for most people, it doesn't. And also for most people, throwing a 30 minute touch base in that throws their whole day off. And so we're really, really cognizant of the power of flow state and how a day should be to the autonomy of the end person, as long as those OKRs, those objectives and key results are very clearly tracked30-minute and everyone understands which ones they're responsible for. And every week you report on the progress, because then as the CEO, I can then see when something is about to go off the rails or we're going to miss a number, because we're reporting on it every week. And then we focus on very minimal amounts of meetings when something is going off track, if that makes sense.
Stephanie Cox: No, it makes a ton of sense. How hard was it for you to shift to that, having worked so many years in the standard nine to five mentality. Did that come easier? Has that been an interesting struggle/ challenge for you to adopt to and to get other people to even understand?
Yeah, I think it's getting other people. So this is how I have always been in my own little world. In college, I was paying for college myself. So I had four jobs throughout college, and I hated sitting in a classroom all day. I was like, just give me the work and I'll go do it. But for me, it was honestly getting in trouble a lot in the corporate world. And I felt like they were... There's a book that I was reading, The Code of the Extraordinary Mind, and they call it brules, B- R- U- L- E- S, which just stands for bullshit rules. Bullshit rules and identifying them and calling them out is my favorite thing in the world. But in the corporate world, I was going through a divorce, had three kids under the age of four. And so I had to get three very small kids into a double stroller in New York City dropped off at two different places, because a couple were in school, couple were in daycare. And I wouldn't get to my desk until 10, 10:30. I would sit in meetings all day. What people didn't realize is I also got up at 5:00 AM and did all of my big thinking work between 5:00 and 6:30 when no one else was bothering me. So I got the deck done, the strategy thing figured out or whatever, the big project stuff. I would sit in my meetings from, let's say, 11 to four. And then I wanted to... my kids were going to bed at 6:30. I didn't want to roll in at 6:15. I wanted to spend that time with them. My kids go to bed early, so I would leave at four. And instead of feeling guilty for that, I would announce it. I would say, I'm going home to be with my kids. They go to bed at 6:30. Text me if you need me before then. I'll be back online at 7:30 to check-in. The two things that I did there was I was transparent about what I was doing. I wasn't tiptoeing and being like, I have a doctor's appointment. I got to go. And then the second thing was setting expectations of how to communicate to me. And what happened was those two things, it worked with my team where it didn't work was within a larger organization and company culture where that wasn't the culture set from the top down. And the executives didn't do that. And we had this generational gap too of what some people believe the corporate culture should be. And other people wanted it more like a startup culture. And so it was ingrained in me that this can work with very clear guidelines and guardrails. But yeah, you have to set it from day one and it's not an easy thing. You're not going to be able to just do that overnight with one of these bigger companies, because the trust hasn't been built from day one. And this teaching people how to do this, because without that you have a lot of people wondering is that person doing their job? Is that person doing their job? They weren't on when I needed them. What happens? When am I going to contact them? Are they out running? I saw their Instagram. And I saw that they're at a coffee shop with their friend. That stuff doesn't matter at the end of the day. What matters is, did that person hit their goals that were assigned to them by a person more senior than them? And if they did, it doesn't matter how they did it, when they did it, but they did it. And the company continues to move forward.
Stephanie Cox: That is 100% true. I'm going to say I feel the same way. It's funny when you're talking about how you would get up early, right, five o'clock to start thinking about all the big picture strategy things. I'm the opposite. I'm a night owl.
Amanda Goetz: Yep.
Stephanie Cox: So I spend a lot of time at night getting things done after my kids go to bed. And it's funny because other people will be like, oh, you need to not work at night. I'm like, how does that impact you?
Amanda Goetz: Right. This is my time.
Stephanie Cox: Exactly, just because that works better for me. And I always tell people just because you see me online at night, just because I'm doing things does not mean I expect you to do them. It does not mean I expect you to be online. crosstalk.
Amanda Goetz: Exactly.
Stephanie Cox: And I always tell everyone that, but just because I choose to behave differently, doesn't mean that I have the same expectations for you. And it's funny though, some people are just like, oh, well, you need better work- life balance, or you need to do less. And I'm like, I have great work- life balance. I just like to work at night crosstalk to get things done.
Amanda Goetz: Right.
Stephanie Cox: That's okay.
The thing that people don't realize is, especially working moms have figured out that during the day is actually insanity and you're being pulled in all these directions. And so for me, my 5:00 AM work time, I love it. I love sitting there when it's quiet and no one's bothering me. And I can actually think clearly before the day has gotten ahead. And then during the day, when I can't get more than 20 minutes of consecutive work in and I'm just responding to notifications, I'll be on the treadmill if I need to. I've got work-life balance and I'll take care of myself, but my 5:00 AM work sprints are what is moving things forward. And that's what works for me.
Stephanie Cox: I love that, same way. I always tell everyone, you got to do what works for you, not what works for someone else. And I think it's hard. The one benefit I think of COVID that's happened is that more companies, not all because I think there are some that are trying to revert back to the way life used to be, are starting to understand it should be more about the results than about the time in the seat, the time in the office, et cetera. And that people can work differently and work from different places and still be just as productive, if not more, than they were in the old way of doing things.
Amanda Goetz: Exactly. 100%
Stephanie Cox: So one of the things that you mentioned earlier was people think that House of Wise is a bigger company and has more employees than you actually really do. Why do you think that is? Does that tie into how you've been intentional around branding at all?
Amanda Goetz: I definitely think so. Well, okay, two things. One is definitely the branding and two is the community. So branding first because that's my wheelhouse and I've had the luxury and amazing experience of working with the pentagrams of the world to redo the not visual identity. I knew how to build a brand from the ground up, and how to create a cohesive visual identity system, and how to create a brand strategy. And so that's my superpower. And so launching RV one of the brand looked like, I would say, having done startups before, I'm like most people's V3 or V4, right? You go through those iterations, so I think that's number one. We just had that luxury, that is our team is a team of marketers. We get cohesive brand, positioning and cohesive copy, et cetera. The second thing is the community though. For about six months prior to launching House of Wise in December, I started to collect women's email addresses who would contact to me and just be like, would love to learn more about what you're doing, because I would talk on social media how I want to build a company that is empowering women. But not just in this bullshit way with just words, but with products. And we're sitting at the really cool intersection of community meets content meets commerce because we have a team of editors. And then we're talking about sleep, sex, stress, wealth, strength. Then we also have this community, and so I would share some of these things on Twitter. Women would reach out and say, I want to learn more. And before we launched, we had hundreds of women who I had been treating almost like investors, if you will. I would send them updates every few we weeks, once a month with like, here's what I'm doing. And they got to see the real behind the scenes because I wasn't ready to share what House of Wise was going to be with the world. And so I told them about the ingredients I was picking. I told them about... I got their input on the packaging, that it should be shaped like a little house and all these things. And so when we launched, we did it with the help of hundreds of women. And so it was as if my team, my company had hundreds of employees because everyone felt connected to this brand, felt connected to me and was excited to share it with the world, because they had probably given some piece of input that was incorporated. And so hundreds of people, on day one of a startup that had never seen the light of day, talking about it is pretty cool. And I think makes people think that we have way more people working on it than we do.
Stephanie Cox: I love that. It's so true though. I think sometimes people... startups go, I want to operate in stealth mode. I want to talk to people about it. I'm like, yeah, but then when you launch, no one cares crosstalk because they didn't know what you were building.
Amanda Goetz: Yep. Exactly.
Stephanie Cox: So you mentioned about how you were just really open and honest about that. How do you balance personal branding and professional branding? Because I think that's a challenge for a lot of leaders today, is I want to help support my company. I want to brand my company, but the same token, I am a person outside of that.
Yeah. My struggle candidly is separating the two because I created a company out of a pain point of my own, out of shame that I experienced in my life that I still experience as now a single mom trying to own my sexuality while still being seen as a CEO and a mom and all these things. So it was born out of truly, truly what I wanted to fix in the world. The analogy I use when I'm talking to a potential investor is like in the early days of Glossier, it was Emily Weiss's... her blog. And she was a huge part of the Glossier brand. Now, Glossier is beyond Emily, right? It is huge. People know it as a really badass beauty brand. And I see that in what I am trying to do, where House of Wise grows beyond my story, beyond this is a female-founded company with a single mom. Those are all parts of the foundation of this house, but that's not how we build it and grow it. And it's all sustainable. And so I think when founders... I get this question a lot where it's like, should I be Instagramming and Tweeting about what I'm doing and sharing my life? You only do that if that's authentic to who you are, because at the end of the day, people can tell if you're forcing it for a false outcome, meaning you're trying to create a connection with an audience or you're trying to build an audience. And also you burn out. If anybody has ever tried to be a content creator, you have to be consistent. People start to really get excited about your life and sharing it. And for me, I truly, truly enjoy doing it because I feel less alone. Being a solo founder and a mom, I don't have that much of a social life. And for me, I love giving the behind-the-scenes because other people give me that feedback of, are they connecting to this? And it helps me build a better brand because I feel like I'm talking to my audience every day. But if it's not something you wake up truly excited to do and you feel like you have to do it, then don't do it because you won't stick to it. It'll feel disingenuous. And you won't ever reach the outcome that you're looking for.
Stephanie Cox: I have fallen in that trap a couple times. I love talking about different things, but sometimes content creation, especially when you do it for work a lot, doing it personally can feel a little bit exhausting and I don't want to think about anything else. Or, Oh, I'm sure everyone's already heard what I have to say. It's funny and you're right. You do have to be consistent with it to make it really effective.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. And I think social media marketers, if anybody's listening and their job is content creation for a brand on social media, there's sometimes an expectation that you should also be amazing at personal social media. And I want to just be very clear that those two things are not mutually exclusive. Wait, is that the right... They don't need to coexist is actually the right phrase because you can be great at brand account marketing and then want to be private in your life or want to unplug. And those two things do not have to coexist. And if anyone ever tells you, oh, I don't know. I looked at your social. Your social grid isn't really branded. And it's just friend photos or whatever, and you're applying for a job, then they don't understand social. And I just think that social media marketers have it even tougher because they spend all day on these platforms. Whereas like to me, social media is an outlet from my Excel spreadsheet nightmares that I'm in. So I love it because I get to go there and feel a boost of creativity and connection, but they're doing that all day. So I think we got to give people a break of what their daily tasks are.
Stephanie Cox: So final question for you. If you were to be able to give advice to all of our listeners that are marketers, what would be the one thing that you would tell them that they need to focus on?
Unpopular, but I mean it is boundaries and sticking to them, because boundaries feel uncomfortable for everyone at first. And I think marketers, we're the center of most companies. It's where sales is coming. It's where product is coming. It's where the customers are coming. And teaching yourself how to set personal and professional boundaries. And then holding yourself to them is really a powerful and undervalued skill set, because no one's telling you, the boundary only serves the person who created it. And so no one else in your life is going to be like, you should really stop working, or you should really go for a walk. No one's going to say that to you because everybody's out for their own best interest. And that skill set is something that I have harnessed in my thirties. And I'll give you the spoiler alert. No one gets mad at you when you set a boundary. If someone says, Hey, can you do this thing for me? And you say, unfortunately, I can't take that on today. Let me know if it's a priority and I need to switch my priorities. Learn the five phrases that you need to have and repeat them and practice repeating them, because your mental health is truly, truly the foundation of everything. And if I have a bad mental health day, no work is getting done. Right? And so setting that... I would much rather lose a team member for two days and then have them back 100% on day three because they took two mental health days than have a week of them operating at 20%.
Stephanie Cox: 100% agree. I remember telling my husband, gosh, this was probably 20 years ago, when we were first starting out in our careers. I was like, I just need a mental health day. I need a day not to think about anything in order to really come back and give it my all at work the next day. And I remember saying that to someone I worked with almost 20 years ago and they looked at me like I was losing my mind. And I was like crosstalk Like I was crazy, right? And it's so funny because it's so true. Sometimes you need a day or couple of days and everyone handles them differently in what they do on that time. But to get yourself in the right mental space to come back and tackle maybe a big project, maybe just your everyday life, but we need to make it... people need to understand that what works for one person doesn't work for the other person. And guess what? That's okay. You've been listening to Real Marketers. If you love what you've heard, make sure to subscribe, rate and review our podcast. And don't forget to tell a friend. All of this marketing goodness shouldn't be kept a secret.